tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post1522024096696620618..comments2024-03-22T05:20:44.167-07:00Comments on The Disaffected Lib: Yes, They Use Human ShieldsThe Mound of Soundhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-92156939789954983692009-01-11T10:17:00.000-08:002009-01-11T10:17:00.000-08:00Mark, where does all this fanatacism come from? I...Mark, where does all this fanatacism come from? I never said Egypt was excused from anything. Calm down, take a deep breath or three. By the way, I don't believe I mentioned either "hundreds of suicide bombs, and a delcared state of war by the government of Gaza" in this post. If you're beginning to see words that I haven't written, bed rest might be an idea.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-50640284494520713682009-01-11T10:03:00.000-08:002009-01-11T10:03:00.000-08:00The border issue is a fair bit more complex than a...<I>The border issue is a fair bit more complex than as you've stated it. Egypt keeps its border sealed mainly to prevent a Gazan exodus, a mass Palestinian migration of the type that bedevilled Jordan decades ago.<BR/><BR/>The greater border issue is Israel's, by far...</I><BR/><BR/>Hold on a second, I saw you palm that card.<BR/><BR/>Egypt keeps its side of the border closed to "prevent a Gazan exodus"... and so what? Why does that excuse them, when according to you thousands of rockets, hundreds of suicide bombers, and a declared state of war by the government of Gaza aren't enough to permit Israel to close its side?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08587234652393541074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-72702730741512184362009-01-10T22:44:00.000-08:002009-01-10T22:44:00.000-08:00Nicely put, Kafir. Now go outside and play.Nicely put, Kafir. Now go outside and play.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-34080769775667978482009-01-10T18:41:00.000-08:002009-01-10T18:41:00.000-08:00Interesting post, "Yes, They Use Human Shields." ...Interesting post, "Yes, They Use Human Shields." But, I note, you do not offer a scintilla of evidence in support of a single statement you make. That lack of evidence weakens the structure to the point of intellectual collapse, rendering it merely another leftist diatribe and a waste of, otherwise, valuable and functional words. <BR/><BR/>Do the terms "reason" and "logic" ring any bells?filthykafirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15574263766248873124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-81757794254118360102009-01-10T17:15:00.000-08:002009-01-10T17:15:00.000-08:00The border issue is a fair bit more complex than a...The border issue is a fair bit more complex than as you've stated it. Egypt keeps its border sealed mainly to prevent a Gazan exodus, a mass Palestinian migration of the type that bedevilled Jordan decades ago.<BR/><BR/>The greater border issue is Israel's, by far. Israel has blockaded Gaza not only by land but also by sea and by air. It has the place hermetically sealed. <BR/><BR/>The siege was brutal and it worked mainly as a form of collective punishment of the civilian population. It didn't accomplish much against Hamas and the other militant groups, witness the rocket barrages.<BR/><BR/>Every time we get into this sort of thing it always devolves into a chicken and egg argument. Israel did this because Hamas did that. Hamas claims it only did that because Israel did this other horible thing.<BR/><BR/>We get truly manipulated by that. Each side seeks to frame the argument along a timeline that puts the other side's acts first. It's all "he started it" when it's like watching a tennis match after the serve. Once the ball is in play, back and forth, it's hard to tell who served - who began everything.<BR/><BR/>That's why the current Israeli narrative cuts this down to a Hamas rocket/Israeli retaliation matrix. Clean and simple, Hamas plainly started it. That deliberately excises the previous history between the two parties and is used to present fault as absolute when, in fact, it's more often to various degrees shared.<BR/><BR/>Another point is the constant references to the thousands of rockets fired by the militants into Israel. In the mind that can conjure up images of the Stalin's Organ mass rocket launchers the Soviets used against Germany. Big difference. The Soviet rockets killed a lot of German soldiers. They were very effective. The militants' rockets have killed remarkably few Israelis. <BR/><BR/>It's one of those claims you have to work through to put it in perspective necessary to weigh the proportionality of the Israeli air and ground attack on Gaza.<BR/><BR/>You are quite right though about the United States. What was the proportionality factor in their war on Iraq? As we all know now, Iraq hadn't attacked America at all. So every bomb dropped, every cruise missile fired, every artillery barrage on Iraq violated the proportionality rule.<BR/><BR/>That, however, gets us into the murky business of American exceptionalism in a unipolar world which really isn't helpful for considering Gaza.<BR/><BR/>I've rambled much too long.<BR/><BR/>Cheers.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-16822684016976407422009-01-10T15:47:00.000-08:002009-01-10T15:47:00.000-08:00This is a more interesting to me - the actual argu...This is a more interesting to me - the actual arguement you're making, and it's well stated.<BR/><BR/>You frankly acknowledge that there is a double standard, and you're right. It's always been clear to me that Isreal is held to a higher standard first as being one of "us". Liberal anglo westerners especially have a long tradition of, as they say, taking every side but their own. And that could be argued as bigotry... not towards Isreal who are then counted as on our side, but towards the "other" on the other side of the double standard, although I think liberals are right to a degree that demanding a completely equal level from people who grew up with the Jew killing Hamas bunny for their cartoons is also unfair.<BR/><BR/>Many westerners don't care that vastly more people and more Muslims died in Russia's response to terrorists in Checnya because we don't feel any responsibility for what Russians do. Leave aside the point that liberals of all people should militate against that kind of double standard, it's bigotry towards Russians if anyone.<BR/><BR/>But there's still this: Isreal is not only held to a higher standard than her opponents, Isreal is also held to a higher standard than her allies.<BR/><BR/>It's as simple as the fact that nobody questions the American right to respond to 9/11 in the way that Isreal is for responding to worse. It's as simple as the fact that Isreal's efforts to stop thousands of rockets fired at innocents earn vicious slurs like "barbarians" and worse. Under threat of being destroyed England returned civilian bombing for civilian bombing in World War II. Who really holds that against them but some of their own? And that was the first time in several centuries England was threatened like that. Isreal faced annihilation from 60 years ago, on the heels of annihilation.<BR/><BR/>If rockets were being indicriminately fired at any other "western" people would "proportionality" mean anything but stopping it?<BR/><BR/>Egypt's border is closed is it not? Yet Isreal is attacked for any percieved blockage in humanitarian supply when they're the only ones providing it. It's not the double standard, it's the size of it. It's the tone of it. Anti-semitism, too, is a millenial fact. What better explanation if Isreal is ostracized for doing or attempting self defence to a degree that nobody else is? It's in the air Mos, even people without it in their heart might have their perspective skewed by it.<BR/><BR/>And for me it's a double "anti-semitism" - not only holding Isreal to a very exceptional standard below which they quickly and conveniently lose a right to "our" sympathy and support but holding Hamas and their supporters to no standard at all, as if they had no more moral agency than an impersonal force... as if they were not human.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02410674849539255467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-67204117867767316202009-01-10T11:32:00.000-08:002009-01-10T11:32:00.000-08:00make that "two millenia" ago.make that "two millenia" ago.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-18897769354543451352009-01-10T11:31:00.000-08:002009-01-10T11:31:00.000-08:00JC, I'll take some of your remarks as tad facetiou...JC, I'll take some of your remarks as tad facetious but overall you're right.<BR/><BR/>Yes it does work for Hamas and, yes, one of the few effective responses is, as you put it, to "go Roman."<BR/><BR/>The history of Roman counterinsurgency is one of putting entire populations to the sword as a warning to others. It did tend to work.<BR/><BR/>Ed Luttwak and other military historians have written about the Roman solution to guerrilla movements. On January 20, 2007 I wrote a post entitled "Why We Lose to Insurgencies" based on a Luttwak article. It's still available in the blog archives if you're interested.<BR/><BR/>But that was two centuries ago and Israel, for all its military prowess, isn't Rome.<BR/><BR/>Were Israel to attempt something like that, it's longstanding, reliable allies would become its enemies, virtually overnight. It would simply bring down the wrath of the world upon its head.<BR/><BR/>You probably think this isn't fair, that the world operates by a double standard. That's an understatement.<BR/><BR/>But the rules of war were forged out of two great and disastrous world wars. Hamas didn't exist at the time. These rules are intended to prescribe the minimum standards we would expect for our own populations which rarely reflect what we're willing to find appropriate for our enemies.<BR/><BR/>So we all have to live within this imperfect, often hypocritical global regime.<BR/><BR/>Israel, like its enemies, often resists, even flaunts that order but it can't hold out for very long. It never has and the circumstances it finds itself in today are not in its favour.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-33028978939725300292009-01-09T23:44:00.000-08:002009-01-09T23:44:00.000-08:00Great post!I had been wondering about the whole "h...Great post!<BR/><BR/>I had been wondering about the whole "human shields" thing but now I'm not. "It fucking works." pretty much covers it.<BR/><BR/>If you have an inferior force and you insist on poking the lion with sharp sticks the only way you can hope to survive the lion's response is to hope the lion has a keeper. <BR/><BR/>But I also like the implications of the "It fucking works" point of view. Stuff can get justified much more easily than by an appeal to reason or, Heaven forbid, ethics.<BR/><BR/>Let's face it, there are 30,000 Hamas terrorists holding 1.5 million Gazans hostages: solution? Kill every last one of the terrorists and accept the 1:3 colateral damage. I mean it is only 10,000 of 1.5 million and, hey, "It fucking works." <BR/><BR/>From the caricature Israeli perspective you have now provided the best possible justification for going Roman on the Hamas ass. <BR/><BR/>"It fuccking works."<BR/><BR/>Brilliant!Jay Curriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07100960091229282311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-60867314939586797032009-01-09T22:28:00.000-08:002009-01-09T22:28:00.000-08:00(robbie hingston)It's not clear to me how the affl...(robbie hingston)<BR/><BR/>It's not clear to me how the affluence of supporters makes any difference with the tight cap on individual donations. Not at all... I don't know, maybe you mean affluent in terms of influence?<BR/><BR/>Come to think of it, that characterization wouldn't make me any more comfortable.<BR/><BR/>I can't see Penlan's comment in any kind of good light.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02410674849539255467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-59798494910442097712009-01-09T22:20:00.000-08:002009-01-09T22:20:00.000-08:00Ed, take it outside. You're boring. Ridiculous, ...Ed, take it outside. You're boring. Ridiculous, but boring.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-75400575350802567582009-01-09T22:13:00.000-08:002009-01-09T22:13:00.000-08:00Hamas should use PUPPIES as shieldsif they want we...Hamas should use PUPPIES as shields<BR/>if they want western sentiment<BR/><BR/>CHILDREN are only unaborted tissue<BR/>and KLEENEX allready makes themedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07910732921200553499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-13446534363856785922009-01-09T22:12:00.000-08:002009-01-09T22:12:00.000-08:00I stand corrected James and I thank you for that.c...I stand corrected James and I thank you for that.<BR/><BR/>cheersThe Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-13400536104118838082009-01-09T22:06:00.000-08:002009-01-09T22:06:00.000-08:00And Ted, this sounded like an invite to me:"I have...And Ted, this sounded like an invite to me:<BR/><BR/>"I have to say I'm a little surprised at how many former Bob Rae supporters think they now have to leave the party because of the Liberal's statements on this fight between Israel and Hamas."James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-44264773696266849372009-01-09T22:05:00.000-08:002009-01-09T22:05:00.000-08:00Actually they didn't leave under Dion's watch. The...Actually they didn't leave under Dion's watch. They left because of Iggy's comments in 2006 where he stated Israel committed War Crimes in Qana Lebanon. That's when they left.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-53475989579963106932009-01-09T21:58:00.000-08:002009-01-09T21:58:00.000-08:00Your first guess was correct Robbie, it was indeed...Your first guess was correct Robbie, it was indeed the "Liberal Party of Ignatieff"<BR/><BR/>You're probably right about Penlan also. There were some prominent Jewish Canadians who made a lot of noise about leaving the Dion Liberals for the Harper Conservatives over the Libs position on Israel. People like Gerry Swartz and Heather Reissman (sp?) for example. I think their vocal departure stung some within the senior ranks of the LPC. Obviously the Libs being as cash strapped as they are and hoping to stage a comeback would like to recover some of that affluent support.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-11451008614962354112009-01-09T21:50:00.000-08:002009-01-09T21:50:00.000-08:00I think Skinny D has a point. But I'd like to know...I think Skinny D has a point. But I'd like to know if the reference MoS made to the LP(I) means Liberal Party of Ignatieff or Isreal.<BR/><BR/>Also whether you have anything to say about penlan's reference to Ignatieff going after the vote of "certain" ethnic groups.<BR/><BR/>da wolfeRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02410674849539255467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-78678813372197356222009-01-09T19:52:00.000-08:002009-01-09T19:52:00.000-08:00To JC,I don't think MoS suggested that Hamas shoul...To JC,<BR/><BR/>I don't think MoS suggested that Hamas should use human shields. I do think that MoS commented that Hamas gains sympathy from many people in the world when Israeli soldiers kill civilians.Skinny Dipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12818163310102120130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-87184186030638769392009-01-09T17:33:00.000-08:002009-01-09T17:33:00.000-08:00Where to begin. CR Jones, the anti-Semite slur is...Where to begin. CR Jones, the anti-Semite slur is getting old - and boring. There's nothing remotely anti-Semitic in anything I've written. The thrust of my argument is that Israel should stop playing into Hamas' hands.<BR/><BR/>It's the same sort of advice as might be had from that other terrorist sympathizer, David Petraeus. Read his team's counterinsurgency field manual. It covers every mistake that Israel persistently makes this being one of the most egregious - and utterly stupid.<BR/><BR/>Child of God, your remark is not just nonsensical, it's obtuse. This post is anything but supportive of this Hamas tactic. Obviously you didn't read it before you ran your mouth.<BR/><BR/>Hello Birdy. I had a look at your blog. Think about getting professional help.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-46115754667844426862009-01-09T16:42:00.000-08:002009-01-09T16:42:00.000-08:00"It's not like we don't know they're going to do i..."It's not like we don't know they're going to do it and it's not like we don't know that we'll ignore all that and go after them with heavy firepower anyway."<BR/><BR/>Thankfully they do continue to use heavy firepower and kill that pestilence known as Hamas and many of it's Gaza citizens, if you can call them that.<BR/><BR/>But, why do they do it?<BR/><BR/>"Why do they do it? They do it because it f**king works."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-41371863837043029792009-01-09T15:06:00.000-08:002009-01-09T15:06:00.000-08:00So you are OK with me grabbing you around the neck...So you are OK with me grabbing you around the neck with a choking forearm, holding you in front of me to absorb bullets while I run through the street killing innocents...hmmmmm<BR/><BR/>I'll bet you voted Liberal in the last election**https://www.blogger.com/profile/00452292114061463489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-61669521439698984482009-01-09T14:55:00.000-08:002009-01-09T14:55:00.000-08:00Mr CLCL, You are fortunate to have been unmasked ...Mr CLCL, You are fortunate to have been unmasked as anti-semite.<BR/><BR/>So, you believe it is as simple as "Either [1] commit enough resources so they can't exploit innocents as human shields or [2] find other opportunities to attach[sic "attack"?] them when those innocents aren't in play."<BR/><BR/>Brilliant! Pray tell me 1) what are "enough resources"? Were you thinkibg an all-out invasion perhpas with house-to-house search and destroy missions, neighborhood-by-neighborhood? or for 2) Israel just ignores the mortar/missiles, especially those which are from courtyards of/on rooftops of mosques, schoolyards, hospitals and such "high-risk" targets - which appear to be 99% of the launches.<BR/><BR/>I applaude Mr. Ignatief for fighting for the right side in this debate, unlike other Liberal leaders in the past. That you would have "hoped" for something different provides a remarkable insight into you knowledge of your leader as it was he who whilst at Harvard "underwrote the subtext" for the UN to invade Iraq. Perhaps you should check HIS bloodline too.crjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14159586390001077512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-448446414709585062009-01-09T12:46:00.000-08:002009-01-09T12:46:00.000-08:00See the attached video. I hope the IDF continues ...See the attached video. I hope the IDF continues this war until every school in Gaza is blasted into pieces slightly smaller than the average size of Corn Flakes.<BR/><BR/>http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8&eurl=http://103.fm/programs/event.aspx?R8r06VQ=EHHK&c41t4nzVq=JKMichael Teperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931885847529646479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-10815358562320139292009-01-09T11:48:00.000-08:002009-01-09T11:48:00.000-08:00Of course they are, Jim. But if you are so insiste...Of course they are, Jim. But if you are so insistent on refusing to see the point, let's just move on.<BR/><BR/>The liar label is easy to dispell. Just point out where I said you have left the party or should leave the party? I didn't. You seem to insist I did.Ted Bettshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06223729391428982448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-74798630816992517372009-01-09T11:39:00.001-08:002009-01-09T11:39:00.001-08:00And some of them are Iggy supporters too Ted. Wow....And some of them are Iggy supporters too Ted. <BR/><BR/>Wow. A bigot, an anti-semite, a neo-nazi...and now, compliments of Ted Betts...a liar. Stellar week for the aht do I know grit.James Curranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064830948270604331noreply@blogger.com