tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post3962805036557994643..comments2024-03-22T05:20:44.167-07:00Comments on The Disaffected Lib: The Moral WarThe Mound of Soundhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-48739765604658711352015-11-16T18:17:35.002-08:002015-11-16T18:17:35.002-08:00@ 6E - yes I fear we will "get used to it.&qu...@ 6E - yes I fear we will "get used to it." We'll tire of these inconclusive wars and our compassion for the victims will wane, perhaps even transform into some degree of hostility.<br /><br />We're not going to emerge as better people for this, anything but. We see the signs already.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-58391949881745139822015-11-16T18:14:50.084-08:002015-11-16T18:14:50.084-08:00UU4077, Trudeau's critics in the media and els...UU4077, Trudeau's critics in the media and elsewhere have injected this issue of morality into the debate. It seems a bit removed from the tenets of "just war" prescribed by Aquinas especially in that we're not waging the sort of war that can achieve peace. That's not our goal. Containment through violence is no substitute for peace.<br /><br />The moral element being tossed around seems rooted in notions of cowardice, the "cut and run" fantasy. We're leaving. That's immoral which, by implication, suggests that staying and bombing anything we can find is the moral option.<br /><br />I think most of us find warfare inherently immoral even if we can sometimes construe it as just. Surely the firestorms we brought to Hamburg and Dresden could never be considered moral nor the nuclear bombs delivered on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and yet we considered that a just war. It was just because we were ridding the world of a great evil and restoring peace. <br /><br />In the Middle East we're not even remotely configured to eradicate ISIS nor restore peace. The proof is that our commitment will wane as the public appetite for continuing it ebbs.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-6023189548671542702015-11-16T17:39:19.822-08:002015-11-16T17:39:19.822-08:00.. I'll start watching for signs the jihad is ..... I'll start watching for signs the jihad is under attack from within. Better said, when women begin taking over the situation. If there's always one thing that trumps ignorance - paternalism & ludicrous fundamental dogma.. its the prime directive of natural selection aka survival of the species. How interested muslim women of the many sects & tribes are regarding a heavenly reward among 40 vestal virgins interests me.. tho its very possible those women won't buy into the far fetched payoff. So .. how will all those women turn the equation back toward survival instead of drug and dogma enhanced extinction? .. Probably via coordinated poisoning of fertile males with bad reproduction strategies.. So far, everything I'm seeing from the current leaders and followers if ISIL indicates a nihalistic arrogance.. the rush to the great hereafter.. and those vestal virgins.. <br /><br />Natural Consequence always answers the bell... is always surprising, often fatal.. Its Murphy's Law in whatever culture, language or past its prime religion you can find. Islamic or Muslim women won't pretend its righteous or holy.. just common sense & natural .. survival instinct !the salamanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06853337802990122289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-15186052574549649442015-11-16T17:34:45.961-08:002015-11-16T17:34:45.961-08:00Mound -- Getting used to it implies doing somethin...Mound -- Getting used to it implies doing something about it. The current approach is at best going to achieve nothing, and at worst to make the problem worse. So I guess your prophecy is going to be self-fulfilling.<br /><br />There appears to be no appetite for new nation-building occupations in either country, and no idea how to conduct such an occupation successfully either. Yet it follows from fairly basic logic that that is the only thing that makes any sense.Sixth Estatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04192110046214949228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-10514012490860734552015-11-16T17:32:38.078-08:002015-11-16T17:32:38.078-08:00As for Moral War - I assume this is another way of...As for Moral War - I assume this is another way of saying Just War. I have a real problem with the concept. I had such a discussion with my Philosophical Theology professor a few years ago (as a very "mature" student!). I still have issues with the idea. Can a war really be just? It would seem so in the case of WWII. But, WWII would not have happened without The Great War (which should never have happened).UU4077https://www.blogger.com/profile/10350775839411436865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-27026528688323561132015-11-16T17:29:18.295-08:002015-11-16T17:29:18.295-08:00And, all the crap happening in Syria can be traced...And, all the crap happening in Syria can be traced back to ... wait for it ... climate change (which, of course, you know Mound).<br /><br />Just wait until Climate Change has even greater direct impact - than it already has - on North America. As you have stated before, the military gets it. The right-wingers? Not so much.UU4077https://www.blogger.com/profile/10350775839411436865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-11597619839660844672015-11-16T17:26:53.871-08:002015-11-16T17:26:53.871-08:00Anyong said: Anonymous said @ .... You are so corr...Anyong said: Anonymous said @ .... You are so correct it is deafening.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-64960762896506083582015-11-16T17:19:41.178-08:002015-11-16T17:19:41.178-08:00Taking the death of Muhammed as a founding date fo...Taking the death of Muhammed as a founding date for islam makes the religion about 650 years younger than xtianity. <br /><br />650 years ago xtianity was behaving almost exactly the same way as islam is now albeit without the explosives and gunpowder projectile weapons. <br /><br />It's a feature of religion. <br /><br />Danahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12465953801145126160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-28911916458592978792015-11-16T16:06:16.822-08:002015-11-16T16:06:16.822-08:00@
'Hi, Ed. Why do you think we won't go af...@<br />'Hi, Ed. Why do you think we won't go after the Saudis and the other sheikhs and princes of the Gulf States for their support of ISIS? They've always got a hand in this shit and we know it.<br /><br />Because ; if we, the West, were to take on Saudi Arabia the worlds best source of oil would disappear and the world economy would crash. <br />There are people and organisations out there that have no problem whatsoever in milking the present situation for all it's worth.<br />Dollars ,Pounds, Euros or Rubles it matters not.<br />The religion of profit, growth and personal greed dwarfs the extremist Muslim or Evangelical Christian faiths. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-56768166757279528242015-11-16T15:54:56.176-08:002015-11-16T15:54:56.176-08:00Who benefits from mayhem in Syria (and Iraq)?
It i...Who benefits from mayhem in Syria (and Iraq)?<br />It is that simple. There are 3 principal actors who are also neighbors.<br />rumlefips & LeDaro are correct.<br />A..non<br /><br />P.S. France was always obsessed with "keeping the link" to former coloniesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-78703773245720953122015-11-16T15:14:34.838-08:002015-11-16T15:14:34.838-08:00Hi, Ed. Why do you think we won't go after the...Hi, Ed. Why do you think we won't go after the Saudis and the other sheikhs and princes of the Gulf States for their support of ISIS? They've always got a hand in this shit and we know it. Sec. State Clinton's intercepted cables revealed that we know this all too well and yet we remain almost mute just as we let them leave our aerial coalition without the slightest protest.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-6982693611492760142015-11-16T14:52:42.439-08:002015-11-16T14:52:42.439-08:00Then there's unintended consequences and surpr...Then there's unintended consequences and surprises. The next 18 months are going to be critical for that sorry part of the world. Right now, ISIS believe they are bullet-proof. They aren't. Just how their wheels will fall off is a mystery, but we will find out, eventually.<br /><br />But it could be a few years, and in the meantime millions of people's lives are ruined and hundreds of thousands are killed because the US, Saudis Russians and anybody else with a buck at stake keeps stirring the misery.<br /><br />Happy Holidays!Edstockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03295069754219954783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-21221261629360568752015-11-16T14:00:13.528-08:002015-11-16T14:00:13.528-08:00@ Rumley - yes, trust does seem to be losing a lot...@ Rumley - yes, trust does seem to be losing a lot of its currency, doesn't it?The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-12103541789920207312015-11-16T13:59:13.237-08:002015-11-16T13:59:13.237-08:00@ 6E - yes, you're onto something. This is the...@ 6E - yes, you're onto something. This is the fallout of statehood failed. We had better get used to it because the coming two decades will see a wave of newly failed states. In the face of forces such as climate change, it can become a contagion as one state falters into anarchy and chaos, dragging down its neighbour in the process.<br /><br />We're dealing with power vacuums of a sort unique to the 21st century and over time our responses will evolve and probably harden.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-6222330147588904942015-11-16T12:07:53.666-08:002015-11-16T12:07:53.666-08:00Kill em all etc. I didn't intend to imply that...Kill em all etc. I didn't intend to imply that: after all that's what is going on now and what we should avoid.<br /><br />When I said none of them can be trusted, I include Canada, the US, Great Britain , France et al.rumleyfipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03346146988416679423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-64835133063716916642015-11-16T11:47:04.332-08:002015-11-16T11:47:04.332-08:00It seems to me that a key problem here is that we&...It seems to me that a key problem here is that we're confusing symptoms with diseases. ISIS is not the problem. The problem is that Syria and Iraq are virtually failed states. If they weren't virtually failed states, then there would be no ISIS, except perhaps as an underground guerrilla group.<br /><br />No amount of bombs dropped can, on their own, magically restabilize a state. Especially since our stated policy is the destabilization of the Syrian regime. We could kill all of ISIS's leaders. For that matter, we could kill every person currently affiliated with ISIS. Then tomorrow, there would be a new group arising to fill the power vacuum. And it would almost certainly be Islamist and radically anti-American.Sixth Estatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04192110046214949228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-55547965016333727132015-11-16T11:35:36.961-08:002015-11-16T11:35:36.961-08:00as this is being talked and written of as the '...as this is being talked and written of as the 'French 911', it would seem reasonable to look at how the usa reacted after 911 proper and see how that turned out. a good rule of thumb would be 'whatever George did, i'll do the opposite...'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-57362573655186590022015-11-16T11:29:20.747-08:002015-11-16T11:29:20.747-08:00@Kirby: The one militant identified by fingerprint...@Kirby: The one militant identified by fingerprints had an Algerian background. %o years ago and more, the French were torturing and murdering Algerians for the glory of France. This guy ( born and raised in France )may be a grandson .<br /><br />Can you say blowback ? I knew you could.rumleyfipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03346146988416679423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-38553169049552531302015-11-16T11:25:50.330-08:002015-11-16T11:25:50.330-08:00Rumley, old chap. You, like Toby, are dangerously ...Rumley, old chap. You, like Toby, are dangerously close to falling into the "Kill them all, God will know his own" frame of mind.<br /><br />As for the Kurds, we fucked them up when we abandoned the Treaty of Sevres in favour of the Treaty of Lausanne to appease Ataturk. Oddly enough they haven't taken their revenge on their ultimate betrayers - us.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-74785904437785627002015-11-16T11:23:27.659-08:002015-11-16T11:23:27.659-08:00@ Anon 11:03. This is just a preview of what's...@ Anon 11:03. This is just a preview of what's to come as climate change impacts spur mass migrations and violent resentments. Hold onto your hat. We're in for a wild ride.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-35870439420839904672015-11-16T11:21:25.245-08:002015-11-16T11:21:25.245-08:00@ Kirby - your grasp of Western moral exceptionali...@ Kirby - your grasp of Western moral exceptionalism is slipping. I want you to go into a dark closet and repeat to yourself 50 times: "White man's burden, white man's burden."The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-30933669365909388272015-11-16T11:05:30.427-08:002015-11-16T11:05:30.427-08:00I spent some time thinking about this and am still...I spent some time thinking about this and am still unsure of my conclusions.<br /><br />Syria has the Assad regime which has been in power for years. Internally there is a rebel opposition, mostly militarily defeated and loosing relevance. Various Kurdish militias have taken the opportunity of the civil war to try and sever land in Northern Syria to establish a greater Kurdistan. The Syrian government did not attack itself to start a civil war.<br /><br />Supporting Syria are:<br /> Russia, who wants to maintain a presence in the middle east and a naval port on the Mediteranian. Russia is providing military, economic and material support.<br /> Iran, another Shia country. Iran is providing little but is not attacking. <br /><br />Opposing Syria:<br /> Saudi Arabia who want the Sunnis swept from the peninsula. They send money to ISIL among others.<br /> Israel, who wants the Golan heights.<br /> The United States, who is an ally of Israel and Saudi Arabia and has desired regime change in Syria for 20 years.<br /> France, for reasons that escape me. <br /> Canada, because " me too ".<br /> Turkey, who hopes the PKK Kurds get crushed in the confusion and wants to steal Syrian territory for a buffer zone to protect against the Kurds. Although Turkey and the Kurds are allies in the fight against Assad they are deadly enemies. <br /><br />Non government players include:<br /> Kurds and rebels already noted supported and repressed by the same national players.<br /> Al Queda, probably financed by Saudi Arabia and armed by international dealers.<br /> ISIL, probably financed by Saudi Arabia and armed by dealers and captured American weapons.<br /><br />The more I look at who is fighting who and why and where the guns and money come from the murkier the whole business becomes. None of them can be trusted for a second. Only unforeseen outcomes seem likely. A victory for the western alliance will be as bad as a victory for Assad.<br /><br />Run away Justin; run away fast. No good can come.<br /> rumleyfipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03346146988416679423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-43789789927548609722015-11-16T11:03:24.671-08:002015-11-16T11:03:24.671-08:00I'm beginning to think that humans are an evol...I'm beginning to think that humans are an evolutionary dead-end. We strike out with destructive violence against each other and everything that surrounds us. This is a problem with the wiring in our brains. Can we alter the wiring and neutralize the violence, or at least make it more productive? Maybe.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-29000749582088862852015-11-16T10:54:26.290-08:002015-11-16T10:54:26.290-08:00What always leaves me baffled in these situations ...What always leaves me baffled in these situations is the way in which countries that are neck deep in imperialistic blood are shocked when their violent past catches up with them. I understand that any such death is a tragedy for those left behind, but at the very least they shouldn't be surprised. Is it just a matter of ethno-centrism or white privilege that Western nations can spend generations in violent imperialism and then be shocked when others commit violence against them? Kirbycairohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17528654183160305877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32931256.post-85250411578842724412015-11-16T10:46:38.852-08:002015-11-16T10:46:38.852-08:00@ Toby - would that we had another Saladin to deal...@ Toby - would that we had another Saladin to deal with. What we have is far worse. You're right. There are no "good guys" in the ME only some that are far worse than others. Actually that's not true. Here I think of the Tunisians bravely standing up to Islamist terrorism and the young people of Iran - modern, secular and aiming to build a better country over the coming generations.The Mound of Soundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09023839743772372922noreply@blogger.com