Thx for posting Mound. This is absolutely horrendous! I read where a liberal candidate said the liberals support Israel's right to defend itself. Maybe I'm wrong but the liberals on the whole seem to be pandering to Irwin Cotter on supporting Israel.To blindly support Israel's right to slaughter Palestinians is really what they are doing. I do not want my country to be supporting this kind of genocide. Do Canadian Political parties support Israel just to get the jewish vote? Is that what it comes down to? We probably won't have Harper bellowing on Israel anymore , but with the Liberals,our government will still be sanctioning whole sale slaughter on the Palestinians. I'm not sure where the NDP stand on Israel, so I didn't want to include them with the liberals. I'll look it up this weekend.I'm also going to look up where Trudeau Sr. stood on Israel/Palestine
This is not going to be solved for a very long time. The hatred between those two groups is such that it may take Global Warming to solve it by driving them all out.
I can't justify what Israel is doing to Gaza but I also can't justify the fanatical Palestinian attacks on Israel.
I think this is a polarized view of the different party positions, when the issue is best defined by a spectrum: one one side, blind support of anything the government of Israel does; on the other, blind support of anything any group of Palestinians do; in the center, not taking one side over the other.
It would seem that both Trudeau and Mulcair take a pro-Israel-leaning centrist position on the issue. Definitely not Harper's evangelical support-Israel-so-Jesus-can-return nonsense.
Part of the Trudeau/Mulcair position is pandering to the soft-pro-Israel moderate conservative vote (that ultimately decides whether we get a Conservative or Liberal government.) Part of it is also related to our polarizing voting system, First-Past-the-Post: if they don't lean pro-Israel, they will be labeled pro-terrorist in campaign propaganda.
It's a shame that Mulcair felt he had to purge the party of any pro-Palestinian-leaning members, including Libby Davis, to have any shot of forming the government. He wan't altogether wrong in his thinking: the moderate conservatives bolted to Harper in 2011 when the NDP was building momentum towards a minority government. If the NDP represents left-leaning voters alone, that will pave the way for right-of-center Liberal majority governments that don't really represent left-leaning or centrist voters.
The solution to this problem is electoral reform. That will end the polarizing politics and allow pro-Palestinian-leaning Canadians to have a voice in Parliament and hold the government to account in Question Period.
It could even lead to a pro-Palestinian-leaning government that could probably accomplish more on the world stage standing up for Palestinians than a neutral position usually accomplishes (i.e., nothing.)
@ Toby - this report is far more balanced than you imagine. When Israel launched its last assault on Gaza I knew from Day One that it was Dahiyeh all over again. That was obvious when the attack began with three days of airstrikes to take down Gaza's water, electricity and sewer utilities. That was followed by air and artillery strikes on other essential civilian infrastructure - hospitals, schools and such. Eventually it winds up with missile, bomb and white phosphorous attacks on residential neighbourhoods.
That's not a matter of speculation or propaganda, it's fact. It is a flagrant breach of core provisions of human rights and laws of war. You may not like what you heard in this video but that doesn't matter.
We know what happened, first in Lebanon (Dahiyeh) and then three times afterwards in Gaza. The pattern repeats. The truth emerged from a hacked US State Department cable released by WikiLeaks that revealed this is a deliberate strategy of the Israeli forces sanctioned at the very top (Netanyahu).
There are several posts on this blog about this. It is indisputable. These are atrocities and nothing less. We, Canada, through our Conservative, Liberal and New Democratic party condone this. The rest of the world knows better, is more honest. This is a fundamental reason why I reject strategic voting. I won't throw my vote to those craven bastards.
@ Pamela. The NDP are every bit as pernicious on this as the Liberals. Mulcair rejected one candidate from the Maritimes who had posted something about Israel's war crimes. Down the road from me, in Nanaimo, Mulcair also nixed Paul Manly's candidacy for a documentary he did on Gaza.
A few days ago I received a call from my NDP candidate asking me to vote strategically. Nice guy, impressive. Yet this issue just of itself is enough that I cannot vote Liberal or NDP.
As for Paul Manly, he was warmly welcomed to run for the Greens in Nanaimo-Ladysmith. My party knows a goddamned war crime when it occurs and will have no truck with those who commit these atrocities.
Mound, I don't dispute what is happening, just the nuance. That we are witnessing a brutal assault there can be no doubt. My problem with it is that every time it appears to settle down one or another Palestinian starts it up again as if it were some sort of macho test. This is a feud. It will never stop.
I won't be the least bit surprised if it gets sorted out with a renegade nuke but any survivors will throw stones at each other.
The responsible thing Westerners can do is to stop arming Israel.
@ Toby. You have the carefully manicured Western construct that maintains it's the Palestinians who bring this on themselves. Where did you get that idea? Noam Chomsky has spent a good bit of time deconstructing that fabrication. It allows you to frame this as a 'feud.' That's a handy bit of deception that's worked wonderfully for at least a couple of generations.
I had that same outlook until one day, in officer school in the 60s, we received a lecture from a young infantry captain just back from his second tour of peacekeeping on the Gaza strip. He spoke convincingly of how the story we got from the North American media - newspapers and magazines - was a total lie. His job was to keep the parties separated and to investigate atrocities. I was stunned when he described how almost all the violations of the buffer zone and killings were instigated by Israelis against Gaza Palestinians. He told us we never hear that in the media and we never would.
From that day on I kept my eyes open and they've been open ever since. Don't give me this crap about Palestinians provoking Israelis. Don't eat that, Charlie. That's horseshit.
When that girl's father or brother or uncle seeking revenge attacks an Israeli, you won't hear about what brought on the attack. Just slap the label "terrorist" on the guy and package it up for the morning papers.
"There are several posts on this blog about this. It is indisputable. These are atrocities and nothing less. We, Canada, through our Conservative, Liberal and New Democratic party condone this."
Funny how someone who fully supported Chretien turning the Liberals into the Brian Mulroney party — while ditching our role as peacekeepers joining Bush's idiotic war in Afghanistan — suddenly decided to go apeshit over recent atrocities in Israel. Like Western leaders supporting genocidal regimes is something new.
I always found it odd how crazy Christian fundies somehow managed to make Israel the center of the world in the Biblical fashion. Fact is, it's just one of many shitholes around our f*cked-up world. What about the rest of the people suffering? Why is everything about f*cking Israel?
This is one issue where I agree with MoS without reservation, and it is driven in no small part because I too paid close attention and watched the actions of the government /State of Israel drive me to this point over the last 30+ years. The amazing lack of context for why one side acts the way it does while the other side, the one with all the actual power, gets made out to be the poor helpless victim, all the while when they have been doing massive settlements increases, stealing more and more water resources away for those settlements, and NONE of that ever seems to get mentioned for its inflammatory role in building up the potentials for violence from the Palestinian side? That it is always the Palestinian side which is the provocateur, and never the Israeli side? I'm Scots Irish, I know blood feud behaviour when I see it and I know it is NEVER a one way street, so when I see that being sold as truth in what is clearly that level conflict I always know to look deeper, and the more I look the more it becomes clear that while neither side are angels one side is clearly the more powerful and yet somehow is supposed to be considered the victim, while the far weaker side is somehow the ones with the power to obliterate the strong unless the boot is kept firmly on the neck.
Sorry, know too much human history to be conned that way. I also trust my lying eyes a lot more than I trust anyone's propaganda out of a conflict zone. I've got no personal stake in this conflict save for what it does to global stability, so I'm no-one's partisan here, yet if I dare to speak anything other than the approved Israeli government line I'm somehow an anti-Semite Jew hater who wants their extinction. Given how politicians and political leaders are sensitive to such portrayals it is no wonder all three leaders are gutless wonders here (well two really seeing as Harper appears to be a genuine Zionist for reasons of his own) and take the positions they do for electoral reasons. I don't like it, don't agree with it, but I do understand it, which is why I agree with MoS overall here.
Its not enough to change my vote, but it is something I keep in mind with it.
This report bothers me; it's too one-sided. This a feud. It is terribly unbalanced and unjustifiable. Neither side is prepared to stop it.
ReplyDeleteAll wars are banker's wars. There is a massive amount of money keeping this going, mostly on the Israeli side. It won't stop until the money stops.
Thx for posting Mound. This is absolutely horrendous! I read where a liberal candidate said the liberals support Israel's right to defend itself. Maybe I'm wrong but the liberals on the whole seem to be pandering to Irwin Cotter on supporting Israel.To blindly support Israel's right to slaughter Palestinians is really what they are doing. I do not want my country to be supporting this kind of genocide. Do Canadian Political parties support Israel just to get the
ReplyDeletejewish vote? Is that what it comes down to? We probably won't have Harper bellowing on Israel anymore , but with the Liberals,our government will still be sanctioning whole sale slaughter on the Palestinians. I'm not sure where the NDP stand on Israel, so I didn't want to include them with the liberals. I'll look it up this weekend.I'm also going to look up where Trudeau Sr. stood on Israel/Palestine
This is not going to be solved for a very long time. The hatred between those two groups is such that it may take Global Warming to solve it by driving them all out.
ReplyDeleteI can't justify what Israel is doing to Gaza but I also can't justify the fanatical Palestinian attacks on Israel.
I think this is a polarized view of the different party positions, when the issue is best defined by a spectrum: one one side, blind support of anything the government of Israel does; on the other, blind support of anything any group of Palestinians do; in the center, not taking one side over the other.
ReplyDeleteIt would seem that both Trudeau and Mulcair take a pro-Israel-leaning centrist position on the issue. Definitely not Harper's evangelical support-Israel-so-Jesus-can-return nonsense.
Part of the Trudeau/Mulcair position is pandering to the soft-pro-Israel moderate conservative vote (that ultimately decides whether we get a Conservative or Liberal government.) Part of it is also related to our polarizing voting system, First-Past-the-Post: if they don't lean pro-Israel, they will be labeled pro-terrorist in campaign propaganda.
It's a shame that Mulcair felt he had to purge the party of any pro-Palestinian-leaning members, including Libby Davis, to have any shot of forming the government. He wan't altogether wrong in his thinking: the moderate conservatives bolted to Harper in 2011 when the NDP was building momentum towards a minority government. If the NDP represents left-leaning voters alone, that will pave the way for right-of-center Liberal majority governments that don't really represent left-leaning or centrist voters.
The solution to this problem is electoral reform. That will end the polarizing politics and allow pro-Palestinian-leaning Canadians to have a voice in Parliament and hold the government to account in Question Period.
It could even lead to a pro-Palestinian-leaning government that could probably accomplish more on the world stage standing up for Palestinians than a neutral position usually accomplishes (i.e., nothing.)
@ Toby - this report is far more balanced than you imagine. When Israel launched its last assault on Gaza I knew from Day One that it was Dahiyeh all over again. That was obvious when the attack began with three days of airstrikes to take down Gaza's water, electricity and sewer utilities. That was followed by air and artillery strikes on other essential civilian infrastructure - hospitals, schools and such. Eventually it winds up with missile, bomb and white phosphorous attacks on residential neighbourhoods.
ReplyDeleteThat's not a matter of speculation or propaganda, it's fact. It is a flagrant breach of core provisions of human rights and laws of war. You may not like what you heard in this video but that doesn't matter.
We know what happened, first in Lebanon (Dahiyeh) and then three times afterwards in Gaza. The pattern repeats. The truth emerged from a hacked US State Department cable released by WikiLeaks that revealed this is a deliberate strategy of the Israeli forces sanctioned at the very top (Netanyahu).
There are several posts on this blog about this. It is indisputable. These are atrocities and nothing less. We, Canada, through our Conservative, Liberal and New Democratic party condone this. The rest of the world knows better, is more honest. This is a fundamental reason why I reject strategic voting. I won't throw my vote to those craven bastards.
@ Pamela. The NDP are every bit as pernicious on this as the Liberals. Mulcair rejected one candidate from the Maritimes who had posted something about Israel's war crimes. Down the road from me, in Nanaimo, Mulcair also nixed Paul Manly's candidacy for a documentary he did on Gaza.
ReplyDeleteA few days ago I received a call from my NDP candidate asking me to vote strategically. Nice guy, impressive. Yet this issue just of itself is enough that I cannot vote Liberal or NDP.
As for Paul Manly, he was warmly welcomed to run for the Greens in Nanaimo-Ladysmith. My party knows a goddamned war crime when it occurs and will have no truck with those who commit these atrocities.
Maybe it's time we all got back to voting on principle.
ReplyDelete"Maybe it's time we all got back to voting on principle."
ReplyDeleteThat's outrageous! Don't you know that voting for who you want to vote for is a vote for Harper? (Or whoever comes after him...)
Our ancestors didn't sacrifice their lives just so people could fool around voting on principle!
Mound, I don't dispute what is happening, just the nuance. That we are witnessing a brutal assault there can be no doubt. My problem with it is that every time it appears to settle down one or another Palestinian starts it up again as if it were some sort of macho test. This is a feud. It will never stop.
ReplyDeleteI won't be the least bit surprised if it gets sorted out with a renegade nuke but any survivors will throw stones at each other.
The responsible thing Westerners can do is to stop arming Israel.
@ Toby. You have the carefully manicured Western construct that maintains it's the Palestinians who bring this on themselves. Where did you get that idea? Noam Chomsky has spent a good bit of time deconstructing that fabrication. It allows you to frame this as a 'feud.' That's a handy bit of deception that's worked wonderfully for at least a couple of generations.
ReplyDeleteI had that same outlook until one day, in officer school in the 60s, we received a lecture from a young infantry captain just back from his second tour of peacekeeping on the Gaza strip. He spoke convincingly of how the story we got from the North American media - newspapers and magazines - was a total lie. His job was to keep the parties separated and to investigate atrocities. I was stunned when he described how almost all the violations of the buffer zone and killings were instigated by Israelis against Gaza Palestinians. He told us we never hear that in the media and we never would.
From that day on I kept my eyes open and they've been open ever since. Don't give me this crap about Palestinians provoking Israelis. Don't eat that, Charlie. That's horseshit.
@ Toby - read this. Maybe read it twice if you find that necessary.
ReplyDeletehttp://the-mound-of-sound.blogspot.ca/2010/08/13-year-old-girl-shot-17-times-of.html
When that girl's father or brother or uncle seeking revenge attacks an Israeli, you won't hear about what brought on the attack. Just slap the label "terrorist" on the guy and package it up for the morning papers.
"There are several posts on this blog about this. It is indisputable. These are atrocities and nothing less. We, Canada, through our Conservative, Liberal and New Democratic party condone this."
ReplyDeleteFunny how someone who fully supported Chretien turning the Liberals into the Brian Mulroney party — while ditching our role as peacekeepers joining Bush's idiotic war in Afghanistan — suddenly decided to go apeshit over recent atrocities in Israel. Like Western leaders supporting genocidal regimes is something new.
I always found it odd how crazy Christian fundies somehow managed to make Israel the center of the world in the Biblical fashion. Fact is, it's just one of many shitholes around our f*cked-up world. What about the rest of the people suffering? Why is everything about f*cking Israel?
I don't know what your idiotic rant is supposed to be getting at, Anon, but I hope you had a good vent of some sort.
ReplyDeleteThis is one issue where I agree with MoS without reservation, and it is driven in no small part because I too paid close attention and watched the actions of the government /State of Israel drive me to this point over the last 30+ years. The amazing lack of context for why one side acts the way it does while the other side, the one with all the actual power, gets made out to be the poor helpless victim, all the while when they have been doing massive settlements increases, stealing more and more water resources away for those settlements, and NONE of that ever seems to get mentioned for its inflammatory role in building up the potentials for violence from the Palestinian side? That it is always the Palestinian side which is the provocateur, and never the Israeli side? I'm Scots Irish, I know blood feud behaviour when I see it and I know it is NEVER a one way street, so when I see that being sold as truth in what is clearly that level conflict I always know to look deeper, and the more I look the more it becomes clear that while neither side are angels one side is clearly the more powerful and yet somehow is supposed to be considered the victim, while the far weaker side is somehow the ones with the power to obliterate the strong unless the boot is kept firmly on the neck.
ReplyDeleteSorry, know too much human history to be conned that way. I also trust my lying eyes a lot more than I trust anyone's propaganda out of a conflict zone. I've got no personal stake in this conflict save for what it does to global stability, so I'm no-one's partisan here, yet if I dare to speak anything other than the approved Israeli government line I'm somehow an anti-Semite Jew hater who wants their extinction. Given how politicians and political leaders are sensitive to such portrayals it is no wonder all three leaders are gutless wonders here (well two really seeing as Harper appears to be a genuine Zionist for reasons of his own) and take the positions they do for electoral reasons. I don't like it, don't agree with it, but I do understand it, which is why I agree with MoS overall here.
Its not enough to change my vote, but it is something I keep in mind with it.