Friday, September 18, 2015

Kevin Page Versus Tommy Mulcair - Which One Will You Believe?

One man is blowing smoke up your ass. Care to guess?

At the end of the day it comes down to this: who are you going to believe, the most credible and courageous voice from Parliament Hill or the artful dodger, a.k.a. "The Angry Beard", Thomas Mulcair?

One didn't have to be particularly sentient to catch the steady waft of bullshit emanating from Mulcair's spending promises in recent weeks coupled with his assurance that he'd not only balance the federal budget but produce surpluses during his first four years as prime minister.  Move over Virgin Birth, you've got nothing on this guy.

Enter our revered former parliamentary budget officer,  Kevin Page.  The learned Page, who has been advising the NDP, says Mulcair's numbers and his promises are a load of "Swiss cheese" based on recklessly optimistic projections.  HuffPo has all the details.


The Mound of Sound said...

What, no Dippers rising to the bait? Kevin Page more than you can handle? Not willing to defend Tommy's Economic Deception Plan?

Look, I'm not trying to put people off this strategic voting business. I really don't care. I just want to knock a good but of that vulgar smug that you Dippers so energetically sport.

I said it before - your guy flies so many false flags it's a chore to keep track of them. He's a greasy Quebec-Liberal pol, absolutely true to form.

And don't whine that I'm picking on him. Layton did everything he could to undercut the Liberals, giving Harper first government, then majority government. You've got no right to moan about somebody taking Mulcair down a notch or two, especially when it's true.

Dana said...

Then of course there's this. Based on the much honoured, traditional NDP principle of "do whatever you can to mislead voters even if it makes you look like Conservatives". Next up, misleading NDP robo-calls.

It appears that the NDP under Mulcair are completely abandoning any vestige of the historical principles of the party. There's certainly no evidence whatever of the CCF and I'd bet, were he alive to witness this, TC would be rooting around in his attic looking for his boxing gloves.

Purple library guy said...

MoS, you and I had better not meet and have an accident with a Star Trek transporter. I have a beard, you're pretty angry, if we got merged we'd apparently turn into Thomas Mulcair and neither of us wants that.

Anonymous said...

"I just want to knock a good but [sic] of that vulgar smug that you Dippers so energetically sport."

Yikes! Trouble in 'Green Party' Paradise MoS? And did Tommy sucker punch or bitch slap you sometime in the past? Shouldn't you be trolling for Harperites? Probably pointless because I suspect that not many Harperites troll your blog.

Entertaining, though :)

Grant G said...

@Mound....Your angers oozes from your post..

Perhaps Mulcair should vow to ravage corporations, unlimited healthcare spending, $30 dollar minimum wage for everyone, no more trees cut, no more resource industry, promise to switch to green technology in two years, ban all fossil fuel use..

Perhaps both Trudeau and Mulcair should go ideological rogue to satisfy your needs Mound..Maybe altruistic, but definitely a way to give Harper another 4 year majority..

No changes can be made until one controls the helm.

Not really that complicated!

Anonymous said...

Anyong said: Now Mound...most of the above is a good laugh. Laugh you head off.

The Mound of Sound said...

I was coming down the coast highway in mid-afternoon on Wednesday. As I neared Fanny Bay, with the windows up and the radio on, I heard it before I rounded the corner and saw it. I pulled over and walked down to the commercial dock. There on the floats were somewhere between 80 and 90-California sea lions.

There was a fisherman nearby working on his engine and we talked. He said those sea lions have taken up permanent residence and that, yes, as soon as they detected the human presence they would just bark and bark and bark. He went down into his engine bay and I walked back up the ramp and, sure enough, they stopped.

I'm not sure exactly why but those overstuffed seals and their howling remind me of a certain party's supporters who seem to reflexively bark out the same scornful message whenever someone intrudes on their presence. They go on the attack to defend their leader.

Not one voice here has said their guy is right and that Page is wrong. Not one. That's the whole point. Your guy is feeding Canadians fantasies based on numbers he pulls straight out of his backside and you're fine with that.

Your guy is a hustler, a secular version of the evangelical hustler we're trying to get out from under. I would prefer Mulcair to Harper any day but that's choosing the lesser of two evils. That's all it is and the pack of barking sea lions that rally to his defence whenever somebody comes down the pier doesn't change that.

The message I'm getting from New Dems is, basically, that the end justifies the means. If that's what it has come to, that's pretty sad.

Northern PoV said...

Seeing as Mound has gone off the deep end ;-) now its my turn with this “animation”.....

Think of Canada like a big cruise ship.
After some long and pleasant voyages - where new shipmates could contemplate working their way up the decks in a fair system - nasty Captain Blue took over and rigged everything so the top decks get more and more and the bottom decks get less and less of everything (except tax audits). New shipmates are only temporary now and you only get to ascend decks via complete obedience to Captain Blue.

Suddenly the bottom decks have a chance to put their choice (of one of the top deck guys) in charge via a quaint ritual. There are two serious contenders. Red and Orange. (Oh, pure Green shouts from an obscure corner of the top deck but mostly gets hushed up.)

The lower decks can't agree on which champion to choose. They both have so many bad... and good points. Each side sure the other is as WRONG as they are RIGHT.

The ritual, consulting the Oracle called “election”, is very delicate and easily manipulated by Captain Blue and the powers that brought him to rule. Some kind of rational unity is required by the opposition if the current Captain is to be successfully deposed.

Captain Blue hides in some "tied-polls" and chuckles already dreaming of the real changes he can start making once this damn ritual is over.

Grant G said...

@Mound...Here in BC the BC Liberals claim we have a balanced budget, and it was confirmed by the auditor general, yet BC`s debt is rising by nearly $10 billion per year, now approaching $170 billion.

Jack Mintz(Economist) swears the HST is good, how it creates jobs jobs and more jobs..BC rejected the HST, Ontario adopted the HST..Ontario lost hundred`s of thousands of manufacturing jobs since adopting the HST

Canada`s debt rose by over $150 billion under Harper reign of terror..

Pierre Trudeau ran deficits..Mulroney ran deficits..

How many $trillion in debt is the USA on the hook for?

$60 trillion counting medicare and medicaid commitments..

Greece..Spain..Italy..debt debt debt

China`s debt..$28 trillion dollars.

And you Mound of Sound smugly hoist an individual onto an economic pulpit and proclaim...

"Gotcha" to NDP supporters...You lash out with "Angry Tom"..You snidely utter "Junior" and worse to describe Justin..Yet I heard nothing from you about Elizabeth May`s boozy swearfest at a Media event, a stagger here a stagger there....If Justin or Tom made that drunken performance their chances of becoming prime minister would be over..

Not one party has a believable budget, and that includes the Green Party who at best will send two representatives to Ottawa.


I agree with Northern View...You Mound, have indeed gone over the edge, maybe you should talk to Dr. Phil

Anonymous said...

How to tell that politician is lying?
A: his lips are moving.
Why they are lying though?
A: because “Humankind cannot bear too much reality,” T.S. Elliot.
So blame populace Mound, not a (particular) politician who, by telling just (often bitter) truth, would never get elected.

Anonymous said...

Yet another article that will give the Tories the edge in the election.
The left will surely squander ( bicker away) this election just as they did during the last BC election.

The Mound of Sound said...

@ Grant G - I appreciate your comments as always. Have you got anything to back up your assertion that every party's budget platform is as skewed as Harper's and Mulcair's or are you finding your opinion in the same geographical spot as Tom is getting his numbers?

I freely confess to the frustration of finding this election is still "it's the economy, stupid" debate. Sure the economy matters, so too does budgeting, but our country is being overtaken by other equally serious issues, foremost of which is climate change.

We vest in whomever leads us all the assets and powers needed to respond to these challenges and yet they're virtually ignored. Sure I've taken swipes at Trudeau and Mulcair but they're not frivolous. Of the two I now prefer Trudeau but I don't think either of them has the vision needed to lead this country at this important moment.

Time is not on our side. Recent courses I've taken on topics ranging from global food security to climate change to the changing nature of warfare in the 21st century to the decline in the nation state, the hollowing out of state institutions, the rise of illiberal democracy and the evolution of competing quasi- and non-state actors, leave me with no doubt that we, as one of the most advantaged countries, have an urgent need to rehabilitate our society and social cohesion and restore our liberal democracy.

We either have to get well past these Kabuki theatre elections or the next few generations will have a very hard time of it. So if I do mock these people (freely admitted) it comes from a heartfelt sense of contempt for those who place their personal political aspirations ahead of the welfare of our country.

Grant G said...

Actually Mound...I believe Justin Trudeau has the best platform, deficits, build Canada, make us modern, the hell with deficits none of the debtor nations will ever pay their bills, so why deprive the people of new, modern technology, bullet trains, transit, clean water... sewage treatment is a must for Victoria, that project should be placed atop the list...Beautiful British Columbia, huh, while our Capital district pukes 18 million litres of raw sewage into the ocean everyday, hypocrisy!

And I also believe that Trudeau is going to win, and that`s okay with me, my riding is solid dipper, I could vote communist and it wouldn`t matter..In fact two days ago while heading to the Burnaby library a man asked if I would sign nomination papers for a candidate running for the Communist party, I obliged, told him the more voices the better..

Clearly the world must change course, and it will, one way, or another..

However, the evil that is Harper must be removed, priority number one..

The movie Independence Day with Will Smith, all the nations of the world united when the earth`s demise was imminent..

The senior class voters are trouble, too many ill-informed seniors relying on mainstream media, sad really, and religion is trouble, although Buddhism seems to be a pleasant outlier...

Mankind has forever been incapable of change until it reaches the precipice of extinction, I expect no difference and yes sea levels will rise and many innocent will suffer..

I too am personally flummoxed between longterm and shorterm choices, Harper must go...

Mound.... I worry about your mental health, your emotional sleeves are drenched with passion, and patience is not a virtue that you and I possess...

The Greens won`t make inroads in this election, I`m hopeful for a future proportional representation electoral system..

But until then, the greatest evil must be removed, Democracy, human and environmental rights will not be restored until the evil is gone..

Anyway, I predicted Justin Trudeau would be Prime Minister two years ago, he`s now leading in riding rich Ontario..And though Trudeau wouldn`t last two minutes in a contest of wits with you or me..

I`m okay with that...

Lastly, perhaps you noticed that I haven`t been writing prop-up pieces for Mulcair, or Trudeau, been writing assault pieces on Harper and LNG..

I don`t like the wrath of angry dippers either..

October 19th/2015...Chips will be falling and there will be very few, perhaps only one green chip..

Be well Mound

Scotian said...


When I first heard the details in the NDP "costing" plan, I was appalled. Not because of Mulcair's claims to be able to do all kinds of new spending and bringing in a balanced budget in his first year, that is alas a far too common political approach that transcends party lines, so I can't say that in itself is all that big a disqualifier for me (not saying it has no such impact, just that overall it is basically an expected tool from a party leader seeking the top position and has been for a loooong time now). No, what really shocked me and I would argue raises much more serious questions about the NDP's basic honesty and/or fiscal competence is not the spending promises and balanced budget promise (although they do have issues too), no the REAL proof of either deception or incompetence in this area comes from their costing using the numbers and assumptions built into the last CPC budget despite the reality that has since shown those numbers are WILDLY overly optimistic and bear no real resemblance to current reality by many billions of dollars!

I mean seriously, how can you establish your financial bona fides when you do something like that, well unless you are only appealing to the fiscally illiterate and the hardcore CPC believers that is, which in itself speaks volumes about Mulcair, does it not? We have seen over the year how the budget even on the day it was introduced had seriously overly optimistic assumptions built into it to create that false surplus for Harper, it has been picked through and shredded by serious economists on this point, and yet Mulcair and the NDP use that as the basis for their costing platform instead of the more recent and reliable numbers from the Bank of Canada and the PBO? REALLY?!

When you combine this with the promises Mulcair makes on spending and yet claiming a balanced budget in the first full year of his government, something literally doesn't add up. THIS is how he is going to establish his financial credibility? Again, what it establishes is either his (and his party's senior leadership and candidates given their position in the rollout) willingness to lie and deceive like Harper or his/their fundamental incompetence in understanding matters this basic and therefore leaving him AND his party unfit/not ready for the job(again since this went through his senior leadership and was endorsed by his supposedly serious element within his party's candidates when it was announced) of government even in good times, let alone in the disaster Harper will leave us in his wake.

to be concluded...

Scotian said...


Yet again we see that far from being the serious ready to govern choice the Mulcair NDP is a pandering say anything do anything party with no real competence beyond politicking, much like what Harper gave us. Say what you want about the Libs, but at least we know that there we have a party with a record for competent government (even if you dislike the directions it takes it still is competent, which neither the Harper nor Mulcair teams are demonstrating, if for different reasons given that the Harperites hate government and are out to destroy it while supposedly progressives/Dippers believe in government and want to use it to better the lives of citizens, which in turn makes the question of basic competence that much MORE important in their case, not less). We need to have follow the Harper government a team with skill and competence even more than usual because of the Harper agenda of destruction of government as a tool for the citizenry, and with this economic framework Mulcair has instead shown yet another reason to question either his basic honesty or competence in a core area of government or worse, both at the same time. No matter which though is the correct answer none are recommendations for government by any rational standard regardless of where one sits on the political spectrum.

Before any of the Dipper partisans/defenders start on about how I'm a Mulcair/Dipper hater, how about not deflecting this time and simply answering the core point being made about the numbers your party is using to make its argument on and why they aren't the problem I just finished noting instead? Because I didn't make you and yours use Oliver and Harper's budget numbers and assumptions that reality has since proven to be wildly off the mark for you own costing assumptions and proof of economic competence, YOUR SIDE DID! YOUR side opened this door to make the argument that Mulcair and his people are either lying through their teeth or are clearly too economically challenged in the competence department to understand why using the CPC budget numbers and assumptions to base their own economic costing plans off of is going to give you are many billions of dollars divergence from reality! THAT was why I was so shocked and appalled (to use a tired old Parliamentary figure of speech that does fit here my reaction) to see Mulcair and the NDP do so.

So which is it folks, incompetence or dishonest pandering on a issue as important as economic credibility, especially given that this area is historically the weak spot for the NDP federally. It has to be one or the other, or worse a fusion of both to explain why the NDP and Mulcair would do something that obviously stupid/dishonest. We KNOW the Harper government is the most dishonest we have ever seen, and that their economic numbers are garbage, and especially in the case of the last budget as subsequent events proved the assumptions they rested on were not just wildly optimistic but insanely so, yet Mulcair and the NDP thought those numbers were the ones to establish thier economic credentials on? Really?!?!?!?

The Mound of Sound said...

@ Grant. Don't worry about me, I'm doing just fine even if not entirely to your liking. I'm not sure that I buy your notion that the nations of the world will gather as in the B-movie Independence Day to avert global calamity. That, of course, is belief-based, the kissing cousin of faith-based, and ignores the realities of how our world and our community of nations is organized. I just don't think Hollywood is going to pull our fat out of the fire this time, Grant.

I realize I can come across as a Cassandra but that's mainly to those who prefer not to dwell on what's happening in our world and what today's changes foretell for tomorrow. There are excellent sources of knowledge freely available Grant, there for the taking. You should avail yourself of more of it and then perhaps you might find me a bit less irrational.